Comments on: W3C To Scrap HTML 5 Codecs – Theora not mandatory http://bin-false.org/theora-is-junk/ Tracking the stories of the week for jupiterbroadcasting.com Tue, 24 Jan 2012 23:43:00 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v= By: Daniel http://bin-false.org/theora-is-junk/comment-page-1/#comment-3019 Daniel Tue, 29 Sep 2009 01:36:41 +0000 http://bin-false.org/?p=257#comment-3019 Good points. But the part about OGG being only a container, while technically true, isn't that important. Ogg has become all but synonymous with Vorbis when talking about audio. Theora + Vorbis is usually assumed when talking video too. It's just the codecs that happen to be used when that container is used.<br><br>Also, there is no reason that the <a href="http://xiph.org" rel="nofollow">xiph.org</a> codecs can't continue to improve. As open source, patent-free material, there is always room for them to improve. And while nobody wants to hear more whining about them, there is value in these codecs. Vorbis is a great audio codec besides. Good points. But the part about OGG being only a container, while technically true, isn't that important. Ogg has become all but synonymous with Vorbis when talking about audio. Theora + Vorbis is usually assumed when talking video too. It's just the codecs that happen to be used when that container is used.

Also, there is no reason that the xiph.org codecs can't continue to improve. As open source, patent-free material, there is always room for them to improve. And while nobody wants to hear more whining about them, there is value in these codecs. Vorbis is a great audio codec besides.

]]> By: Daniel http://bin-false.org/theora-is-junk/comment-page-1/#comment-3005 Daniel Mon, 28 Sep 2009 18:36:41 +0000 http://bin-false.org/?p=257#comment-3005 Good points. But the part about OGG being only a container, while technically true, isn't that important. Ogg has become all but synonymous with Vorbis when talking about audio. Theora + Vorbis is usually assumed when talking video too. It's just the codecs that happen to be used when that container is used.<br><br>Also, there is no reason that the <a href="http://xiph.org" rel="nofollow">xiph.org</a> codecs can't continue to improve. As open source, patent-free material, there is always room for them to improve. And while nobody wants to hear more whining about them, there is value in these codecs. Vorbis is a great audio codec besides. Good points. But the part about OGG being only a container, while technically true, isn't that important. Ogg has become all but synonymous with Vorbis when talking about audio. Theora + Vorbis is usually assumed when talking video too. It's just the codecs that happen to be used when that container is used.

Also, there is no reason that the xiph.org codecs can't continue to improve. As open source, patent-free material, there is always room for them to improve. And while nobody wants to hear more whining about them, there is value in these codecs. Vorbis is a great audio codec besides.

]]> By: Shawn J. Goff http://bin-false.org/theora-is-junk/comment-page-1/#comment-2560 Shawn J. Goff Fri, 03 Jul 2009 22:57:56 +0000 http://bin-false.org/?p=257#comment-2560 @James Khan Can we keep the argument technical and avoid the ad hominems? @James Khan
Can we keep the argument technical and avoid the ad hominems?

]]> By: James Khan http://bin-false.org/theora-is-junk/comment-page-1/#comment-2558 James Khan Fri, 03 Jul 2009 20:36:18 +0000 http://bin-false.org/?p=257#comment-2558 Really... next year you will have to pay for the privilege of using h.264, x.264 is not a viable alternative. I agree that h.264 is technically more efficient than Theora but that is not the point. Theora can be improved and possibly brought on par with h.264. H.264 oh wait... that is controlled by MPEG. In addition it is in Apple's interest to push for h.264 over Theora. Apple are in the media selling business and have links to many content producers. Apple could easily support Theora if they wanted to, they choose not to for business reasons and not patent concerns. Apple have and will continue to look out for their own interests first. The question of the html video tag is more do you with your belief in an 'open' web. Do you? Open for all and not just corporations who can afford to license h.264. In all honestly I am sure most regular users of the web are not even aware of what formats they use. Or when they look at a photo if it is a PNG or a JPEG. And you know what they can do this because a patent restriction is not there for these formats. Do you think it is better that we have many competing html5 video implementations or that we have one? By your argument you advocate h.264 and such a more proprietary world wide web as opposed to being free and open for all to use and enjoy. Also do you not consider that bandwidth will increase continuously as it has done for the last 30 years, if size/bandwidth considerations are your objection for not using Theora? Why do you slam OOXML from Microsoft but advocate h.264? Surely OOXML has been through ISO? Do you see the analogy I am making? When Tim Berners-Lee came up with the world-wide-web he envisioned that it would be open for all. Despite what you say h.264 is not fee for all to use. You can make 'controversial' statements like 'Ogg should die' but it shows you in a very bad light, you only make your self look very ignorant and ill informed. I am not saying this to be unkind to you but you are just looking for an argument. I think you know that Vorbis is at least on par with AAC. Have you researched how many game companies are using this tech in their offerings now. And you are recording LAS today show your support for this thesis and declare live to the world how OGG and Theora should die. Really… next year you will have to pay for the privilege of using h.264, x.264 is not a viable alternative. I agree that h.264 is technically more efficient than Theora but that is not the point. Theora can be improved and possibly brought on par with h.264. H.264 oh wait… that is controlled by MPEG.

In addition it is in Apple’s interest to push for h.264 over Theora. Apple are in the media selling business and have links to many content producers. Apple could easily support Theora if they wanted to, they choose not to for business reasons and not patent concerns. Apple have and will continue to look out for their own interests first.

The question of the html video tag is more do you with your belief in an ‘open’ web. Do you? Open for all and not just corporations who can afford to license h.264.

In all honestly I am sure most regular users of the web are not even aware of what formats they use. Or when they look at a photo if it is a PNG or a JPEG. And you know what they can do this because a patent restriction is not there for these formats. Do you think it is better that we have many competing html5 video implementations or that we have one? By your argument you advocate h.264 and such a more proprietary world wide web as opposed to being free and open for all to use and enjoy.

Also do you not consider that bandwidth will increase continuously as it has done for the last 30 years, if size/bandwidth considerations are your objection for not using Theora?

Why do you slam OOXML from Microsoft but advocate h.264? Surely OOXML has been through ISO? Do you see the analogy I am making?

When Tim Berners-Lee came up with the world-wide-web he envisioned that it would be open for all. Despite what you say h.264 is not fee for all to use.

You can make ‘controversial’ statements like ‘Ogg should die’ but it shows you in a very bad light, you only make your self look very ignorant and ill informed. I am not saying this to be unkind to you but you are just looking for an argument. I think you know that Vorbis is at least on par with AAC. Have you researched how many game companies are using this tech in their offerings now.

And you are recording LAS today show your support for this thesis and declare live to the world how OGG and Theora should die.

]]> By: King InuYasha http://bin-false.org/theora-is-junk/comment-page-1/#comment-2557 King InuYasha Fri, 03 Jul 2009 19:24:51 +0000 http://bin-false.org/?p=257#comment-2557 H.264 might even be okay to offer as one of two codecs for the baseline (along with Theora), since I believe the latest patent the MPEG-LA has will expire on 2028. The HTML 5 standard is not due to be finalized until 2022. Possibly a few years later anyway. Patents didn't even become a concern until companies started suing Linux vendors. I think it was the GIF LZW compression algorithm patent that made the open source world extremely aware of software patents, but I don't quite remember.... H.264 might even be okay to offer as one of two codecs for the baseline (along with Theora), since I believe the latest patent the MPEG-LA has will expire on 2028. The HTML 5 standard is not due to be finalized until 2022. Possibly a few years later anyway.

Patents didn’t even become a concern until companies started suing Linux vendors. I think it was the GIF LZW compression algorithm patent that made the open source world extremely aware of software patents, but I don’t quite remember….

]]> By: chris http://bin-false.org/theora-is-junk/comment-page-1/#comment-2556 chris Fri, 03 Jul 2009 19:19:54 +0000 http://bin-false.org/?p=257#comment-2556 @ James Khan Did you skip over the part where I said that I want to get the content in the formats the audience wants? And that's why we WILL be using (already in testing with the latest episode of Beer is Tasty) and thats why we do today put out our content in Vorbis and Theora? I'm down with people using whatever format/codec they want. But I think we need to be serious about what we are chanting. If freedom from some possible potential might be possibly an issue nebulous legal thing is the most important aspect to you in a video and audio codec, then you're set, cuz I support that. But I think we should be realistic, X.264 is better from the ground up... But it has more clear legal issues around it. Time for something new, OGG is already behind. Has been for a couple years now. Maybe the future is Dirac! @ James Khan

Did you skip over the part where I said that I want to get the content in the formats the audience wants? And that’s why we WILL be using (already in testing with the latest episode of Beer is Tasty) and thats why we do today put out our content in Vorbis and Theora?

I’m down with people using whatever format/codec they want. But I think we need to be serious about what we are chanting. If freedom from some possible potential might be possibly an issue nebulous legal thing is the most important aspect to you in a video and audio codec, then you’re set, cuz I support that.

But I think we should be realistic, X.264 is better from the ground up… But it has more clear legal issues around it. Time for something new, OGG is already behind. Has been for a couple years now. Maybe the future is Dirac!

]]> By: Jack http://bin-false.org/theora-is-junk/comment-page-1/#comment-2555 Jack Fri, 03 Jul 2009 19:10:29 +0000 http://bin-false.org/?p=257#comment-2555 What about the other On2 codecs. VP6,7 and 8. I'm sure On2 would license those very reasonably for the web browsers and they have hatrdware support. I'll bet the only one opposed to that would be Apple. Apple doesn't want anythng that isn't H.264 period. There may be some encoding fees associated with buying a Flix encoder from On2 but they don't charge royalties for video s distrubuted in their formats. What about the other On2 codecs. VP6,7 and 8. I’m sure On2 would license those very reasonably for the web browsers and they have hatrdware support. I’ll bet the only one opposed to that would be Apple. Apple doesn’t want anythng that isn’t H.264 period.
There may be some encoding fees associated with buying a Flix encoder from On2 but they don’t charge royalties for video s distrubuted in their formats.

]]> By: Shawn J. Goff http://bin-false.org/theora-is-junk/comment-page-1/#comment-2554 Shawn J. Goff Fri, 03 Jul 2009 18:48:05 +0000 http://bin-false.org/?p=257#comment-2554 Great post! People talk about software patents being evil and such, and I agree that there a lot of patents out there that are. However, compression is a very academic endeavor requiring much serious research and development.. If there exist such a thing as a non-evil software patent, surely this would be a candidate. I have no problems with people using h.264, but I do love the fact that there are unencumbered formats available. On a separate note, I would like to mention that there is another free video codec out there worth taking a good look at: Dirac http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirac_(codec) . Great post! People talk about software patents being evil and such, and I agree that there a lot of patents out there that are. However, compression is a very academic endeavor requiring much serious research and development.. If there exist such a thing as a non-evil software patent, surely this would be a candidate. I have no problems with people using h.264, but I do love the fact that there are unencumbered formats available.

On a separate note, I would like to mention that there is another free video codec out there worth taking a good look at: Dirac http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirac_(codec) .

]]> By: James Khan http://bin-false.org/theora-is-junk/comment-page-1/#comment-2553 James Khan Fri, 03 Jul 2009 18:36:35 +0000 http://bin-false.org/?p=257#comment-2553 Show your support buddy.... go and get yourself some more good will in the community now. Do you understand freedom or do you just want to cause an argument? I tell you what Chris.. stop encoding the Linux action show in Vorbis... be as proud on the show as on this blog.. state your case. "There wil be no mor shows released in Vorbis because it is so much worse than MP3 and pattents don't mean shit for an end user." After all it is here you says Vorbis should die. Be brave... state your case of which your certain. Show your support buddy…. go and get yourself some more good will in the community now. Do you understand freedom or do you just want to cause an argument? I tell you what Chris.. stop encoding the Linux action show in Vorbis… be as proud on the show as on this blog.. state your case. “There wil be no mor shows released in Vorbis because it is so much worse than MP3 and pattents don’t mean shit for an end user.” After all it is here you says Vorbis should die. Be brave… state your case of which your certain.

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